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Reality is an illusion (Read 1536 times)
gherkin
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Reality is an illusion
Jun 24th, 2010, 8:07pm
 
Everything we know and can think of, is actually just a construct of our imaginations. Consciousness is the underlying nature of all existence, not an effect of it.
 
I used to be an atheist and materialist (last 15 years), as I required direct proof that God existed. However, in the last year another question of equal magnitude came up to me. Are other human beings conscious? Does consciousness even exist? I have no evidence aside from my belief itself that any other being is conscious and experiencing. Except for the fact that I myself am experiencing, I would also have no evidence that even myself is conscious.
 
I have since come to believe that consciousness is the basis of all reality, and that it is identical or analagous to whatever god is.
 
It is the same question, in actuality - is existence under the control of a personal being, or is it mechanical forces acting in amazing and coordinated evolving patterns? Is a man under the control of a personal consciousness, or is he governed by mechanical forces and patterns? If I require the standard of proof, then I can no more say that any being is conscious than I can say there is a god.  
 
Amazingly, quantum physics in the last 100 years have confirmed that existence is dependent on its own observation (by consciousness). This blew my mind, and i hope it will yours as well.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8AXmJdmzfM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Y4VKhKSxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSnXfd9bWsc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiKdFLpuT98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Gb9xNeSQ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PJp5-d2ljo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap-JvozEkC4
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnvM_YAwX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG9FO7JGWq4
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s42mrdhKwRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D98KWJ-1geI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7LlTfNKVtU
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dpRPTwsKJs
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oePY_MH3mqk
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barbarian
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #1 - Jun 25th, 2010, 2:00pm
 
Isn't this the boiling down to Descartes' the only thing you know for sure is "I think therefore I am" in many ways?  If I remember correctly, he breaks it all down to being possible deception, except for that, and then works his way back up based on faith in the divine.
 
Of course he wasn't exactly versed in quantum mechanics.
 
Einstein with his "God does not play dice with the universe" denial of much of QM.  Still rolling in his grave I guess.
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gherkin
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #2 - Jun 30th, 2010, 7:47am
 
It's more than that, Barbarian. Did you watch the videos? My commentary was mostly my experience and an introduction to the idea, not the evidence for the idea itself.
 
Yes, it is more or less boiled down to Descartes depending on how you look at it, but most people take Descartes meaning in a shallow way. Great truths like his can often be easily overlooked because they reflect shallow truths as well.
 
The real question is: When you think, when your mind is active, what/who is it that is noticing that you are thinking? That is the real you. Your thoughts are no more you than your hand is. They are a part of your body. The only thing which is you is your observer, your consciousness.  
 
We can look into a mind all we want, and we can't find the consciousness, the "you-ness". We can dissect each thought, each idea, break down where it came from, and what electro-chemical processes made it - but we cannot find the observer of those thoughts. We cannot find the experiencer of those thoughts.
 
It's also just like the question of heaven I asked my Grandma when I was young. I asked her if she could be happy in heaven knowing that as an Atheist I would be in hell. She said of course, for in heaven every tear is wiped away. So the being that ends up in heaven is most definitely not the thinking being that we see on earth. When the body fades away, the observer themselves goes to heaven, not the thinker. The soul is the observer, not the part of you that thinks, but the part of you who sees the thinking happen.
 
Your ego wants you to identify yourself with your thought, or even your body. But this is not who you are. The only part of you which is you is the observer.
 
I think therefore I is. He is not affirming that he exists, and if he was, just thinking wouldn't be good enough evidence for that, as computers think. He is affirming that his I-ness exists. His observer exists. He is saying he has a soul, because he can "see" himself think. Descartes didn't push this any further, because of the threat of the Catholic church. Instead he decided to leave matters of the mind and soul to the church and matters of the external world he tackled.
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #3 - Jul 1st, 2010, 10:49am
 
I would argue that the existence of consciousness is evidence of God (creator of the universe and human beings).  If there is no such supernatural being, then there is only the materialistic world governed by only natural processes.  As you have correctly argued, nothing in the material world can explain or account for our consciousness (our soul).  Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that consciousness is a supernatural part of ourselves given by a creator.  You would argue that consciousness is identical to whatever god is, but how can my real me and your real you, which are distinct, be identical to the same thing, let alone to something that brought the universe into existence?  It is well established that the universe came into existence at a moment in the finite past, and that many constants of physics had to be very precisely fine-tuned in order for there to be any possibility of life existing.  It makes more sense to me that this was orchestrated by an intelligent, personal being, rather than by a vague impersonal concept of “consciousness” that now passively acts as each person’s observer.  To put it simply, which is more reasonable, to say that God gives everyone a soul or that everyone’s soul is the same as God?  I think the former.  
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #4 - Jul 1st, 2010, 3:32pm
 
Gherkle, youre like a crappity smacking ghost passing from one empty idea into another. Let me cast a little light on your "endeavours"...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKkBEOOzIjk&feature=related
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barbarian
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #5 - Jul 1st, 2010, 11:03pm
 
Quote from gherkin on Jun 30th, 2010, 7:47am:

I think therefore I is. He is not affirming that he exists, and if he was, just thinking wouldn't be good enough evidence for that, as computers think. He is affirming that his I-ness exists. His observer exists. He is saying he has a soul, because he can "see" himself think.

 
So he can see himself think, means that he also thinks and he has the power to observe it.  How does he know the great deceiver isn't manipulating his observations?  His postulate assumption used to be that his soul-mind was unto itself without the possibility of tampering. If you start to bring in senses, or even self diagnostics, it gets a bit murky doesn't it?  Ultimately, with our technology today, is it beyond reason that a deceiver could alter self-observation, sort of like the Matrix?  Descartes ultimately, if I remember correctly, was a devout religious man... he wasn't diving into philosophy to disprove God, quite the contrary, he wanted to base his proof of God upon being able to overcome all possible questions of the deceiver interfering.
 
Today in quantum mechanics we have the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, but I'm not sure how that enters into this, if that's what you were referring to?
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buttwheat
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #6 - Jul 2nd, 2010, 3:14am
 
it gets a bit murky doesn't it?
 
omg, of course its murky. This whole discussion is. You want truth? We are just high order animals, a handful of neurons above a goat or a pig. Put THAT in your matrix and dissect it.
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #7 - Jul 2nd, 2010, 11:35am
 
Humans are much more than higher level animals.  We are different from any other species not in degree but in kind.  No other animal has anywhere near our capabilities for language (spoken and written), understanding abstract ideas, artistic expression, and religious experience.   There is also certainly something that humans uniquely have (whether you call it self-awareness, consciousness, soul, or spirit), which gives us abilities that cannot be adequately explained by the sum of our neurons.  
 
Now, about matter being real:  I will admit that we cannot prove that it is, but that does not mean that it is not absurd to believe it not to be.   There is overwhelming and compelling evidence that things we see, hear, smell, taste and feel are real because other thinking beings experience these things in the same way we do.  If a bird is chirping and we note that several people are seeing and hearing it exactly as we are, then we can be confident it is real.  The only way around this is if you believe that you are the only conscious being and every one else is being controlled in order to deceive you into thinking you are experiencing reality.  But it seems preposterous to think that I am the only sentient being and a whole universe of perceptions is being created only to deceive me, and then for what possible purpose?  Suppose there are two conscious beings having a free conversation.  Then one of them can change the reality of the other by what he/she says.  This would contradict the notion that nothing is real and all our perceptions are fed to us by a deceiver.  I guess you could say that nobody is free and all our thoughts, words, and actions, are dictated by an outside force, but then, nobody is even capable of an individual thought.  If you cannot think at all for yourself, then the "you" doesn't really exist, and you are just somebody else’s lifeless tool.  So in this case nobody is really deceived because nobody really exists either! – another absurdity.        
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #8 - Jul 3rd, 2010, 8:12am
 
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #9 - Jul 3rd, 2010, 10:32pm
 
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #10 - Jul 18th, 2010, 5:30am
 
I am sleeping, you are in my dream. When I wake up, you will all disappear. However, not knowing what my waking reality is, I do not wish to wake up.  Wink
So keep the noise down, kids!
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LADY.KATHRYN
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #11 - Jul 27th, 2010, 12:20pm
 
and what about Schrodinger's Cat?
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #12 - May 6th, 2011, 11:33am
 
razorclaw: (dials 9-1-1)
Operator: 911, what is your emergency?
razorclaw:  Please send an ambulance with restraints to the home of a "BoltsRaysPats" somewhere in America.
Operator: Oh no, not again....
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #13 - May 6th, 2011, 1:57pm
 
Hehe, ummmm...I respectfully deny everything stated in that post I just deleted. Instead, I'll keep my response simple and sane: There is no evolution in math. Mathematics was perfect from the very beginning and that alone should be enough to convert the non-believers.
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LADY.KATHRYN
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Re: Reality is an illusion
Reply #14 - May 27th, 2011, 6:38am
 
Teaching given by the Buddha  
 
Do not go by revelation;
Do not go by tradition;  
Do not go by hearsay;  
Do not go on the authority of sacred texts;  
Do not go on the grounds of pure logic;  
Do not go by a view that seems rational;  
Do not go by reflecting on mere appearances;  
Do not go along with a considered view because you agree with it;  
Do not go along on the grounds that the person is competent;  
Do not go along because [thinking] 'this is our teacher'.
when you yourselves know: 'These things are unwholesome, these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; and when undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill, abandon them...
when you know for yourselves: These are wholesome; these things are not blameworthy; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness, having undertaken them, abide in them.
 
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